ORIGIN
In the beginning Gelthena created her eternal realm of Arvanis and filled it with life, and the gods reveled there. Fey-Kalyn was enamored by its lush forests, emerald fields and shimmering streams, and composed a beautiful song to celebrate its beauty and grandeur. As he sang the whole of Arvanis seemed to dance to his music. Gelthena's heart was lifted and she was filled with a great love for Fey-Kalyn as his voice rang out long and clear over the realm, and so she captured this song in the wind and blew it into the boughs of the great trees of life. Immediately they turned from verdant green to brilliant shades of gold, silver, copper and bronze and their leaves began to fall, spiraling through the wind until they struck the waters of the Eternal Stream which flows from the Spring of Life. Life burst forth from where the leaves had fallen and took the forms of men and women, likened to Fey-Kalyn in beauty, form, agility and talents. They were Gel'Vani (her children) from on high. Hundreds emerged from the stream and Gelthena gifted them to Fey-Kalyn, explaining that unlike the gods these, her sixth'blood were born without divine knowledge, and he should decide who and what they would be. So it was that he taught them a great love for art and music and they joined him in songs and dance. He led them to develop a language and artistry, and to build homes and live in peace and harmony upon the shores of the stream of their birth. So it was that we were created by the all-mother and inspired by the music and will of Fey-Kalyn, and were were named the Que-Gelvani, for we came from on high, and were first amongst the Nu'Valatha'Gelvani.
…..We que'gelvani lived in Arvanis in peace for a long time and in this era another were created, the Seyl'Gelvani, who also came from the stream and were inspired by Inlysh. They lived with us in harmony, though they preferred to run wild in the woods and live without order or civility. Thus it was for many ages until the drey'gelvani were born. It is said that Kelamin and Hanrael were often rivals and fought over many things. In one of their battles a fire was sparked and it burned through much of the forest of Arvanis before Gelthena quelled it. In her sorrow she blew the ashes into the Eternal Stream and from the waters arose the Drey'Gelvani. She gifted them the burned lands so that they could work it and replenish its life, and so they did but the forest they created was darker and filled with the malevolence of the hate that had destroyed it originally. The drey'gelvani were fueled by this hate and coveted our beautiful verdant woods. Often they crossed the stream, and though Gelthena wished us to live in harmony, they would raid our homes and take what they wanted for themselves. We tried to disuade them from this course of action, but they would not be thwarted.
….. In this time came Zarthandir, the great shamoran, who filled the sky with stars and showed Gelthena how they reflected in the Eternal Stream. So enamored with their beauty was Gelthena that she gave them life, and so were born Grey'Gelvani. They were a thoughtful and creative people, like us, and began building elaborate towers of stone amidst the trees. They built many shrines to the gods and beautiful statues in honor of Gelthena. We found them to be much like us, and at first we lived in peace with them. We even helped them build many towers, which would rise nearly to the heights of the trees. However, their desire to create would soon overcame their love for the woodlands and they began clearing away the forest to build a great city. We attempted to dissuade them from their terrible course, knowing it would anger Gelthena, but they would not listen.
….. In time, the drey'gelvani befriended the grey'gelvani and convinced them to share their knowledge of building. This was a dark omen for us, as the drey'gelvani had continued to ignore Gelthena's desires for peace and raid our homes. We requested that the grey'gelvani not have dealings with the drey' but they would not listen to our wisdom. We did not know then, that the drey' had discovered caverns beneath the forest, that led under the great Tree of Naeja beyond the sight of Gelthena. It is believed that Vilrithia created these tunnels to secret her way in and out of Arvanis. It was in these caverns that they first discovered the metal ores that they gifted to Kelamin. The god should have realized what they were doing, for himself had used these passages, but he was blinded by his desire to create weapons of war. So it was that he taught the drey' to craft the first weapons created on Arvanis. They exchanged this knowledge with the grey' who then traded it with us, though we didn't understand the implications at the time.
….. When the Drey' learned that we had weapons ourselves they became fearful that we would retaliate against them for their prior transgressions. Tensions grew as both sides armed themselves and the Seyl' and Grey' found themselves caught between. All it would take was a single spark to light the fire of this conflict. It came far too soon.
APPEARANCE
….. Que-Gelvani are a small and frail people, but incredibly agile and graceful. They often have a pale, yet warm glow to their flesh and their eyes shimmer with bright or earthy colors. Their silken hair is often earth toned, silver or golden but shines brightly and seems to be naturally soft and full. Like all elves, they only have hair flowing from their heads and can never grow it anywhere else upon their bodies.
SOCIETY
….. Que-Gelvani tend to live spread out throughout their forests. Their homes are often built into great trees of prodigious size and height; they use their natural connection to both nature and magic to manipulate the forests to their needs without harming them. Many high elf Houses do come together to form communities, however, and some have founded cities that are legendary. throughout Verosia. These are typically a collection of elegant tree-dwellings alongside majestic towers that rise out of the forest as if trees themselves. Long, narrow bridges span over vast gardens to interlink tower and tree-home alike. The Que-Gelvani take pride in making their communities as close a part of the forest as possible, and are renowned for the magic they use to make this happen, and their impossible architectural feats, as well. Greatest of these cities in Mirivia is Shey-Tishan, where the Quel-Thena resides.
….. Que-Gelvani, more so than all other elves, hold their matrilineal society in high honor. A deeply religious people, their matriarchal monarchy is directly linked to the divine order of their gods, where Gelthena rules as queen over all other deities. Thus, they would never conceive of a council to act as a check to their Quel-Thena, and have only once accepted a king—as a regent until their next queen was ready to rule. Though pious and respectful of all Gelvani deities (with the exception of some evil powers and certain Drey-Gelvani divinities), they are particularly devoted to Gelthena and, until his destruction, Fey-Kalin. The death of their progenitor deity at the hands of Kelamin Kahn, the progenitor of the Drey-Gelvani, is a primary reason for the enduring enmity between their two peoples.
CULTURE
The Que Gelvani are the most numerous of the Gelvani, and are by far the most open and outgoing of the Children of Gelthena. They celebrate life and their existence and long for the day they can rejoin their Great Mother in Arvanis. Where the Grey communities embrace their debates and the Drey are fond of their competitions, Que Gelvani communities are well known for their festivals and celebrations. With song and poem, the Que Gelvani embrace deeds of old, ideals of greatness and glories of past eras; all while pining to one day bring unity to their race. They are often passionate and driven, and their openness leads them to live lives of many dalliances. They are their father Fey-Kalin’s children, reveling in the forests, and caring deeply for art, music, and performance.
The Que are possibly the most curious of the Gelvani, and thus are the most likely ones to be found outside the Gelvani forests. Often as merchants they travel to nearby Duenemein and Duervar lands, benefiting from their brethren’s more isolationist tendencies. Due to this tendency, those who’d never meet a Grey, Drey, or Sylvani often think of the Que as ‘the stereotypical Gelvani’, though this isn’t always the case. The Que are more alike the other Gelvani than not, and can occasionally come across as xenophobic and ethnocentric when they do interact with other races if they aren’t careful.
Within their own realms, the Que Gelvani have a peaceful society. Given their long life spans and passion for all aspects of their lives, they often individually possess a smattering of different skills, such that they could all exist in completely self-reliant states. Interestingly enough, however, their collective family units prefer to exist in a more co-dependent state to provide for each the basic needs of existence. Due to this, the Que provide for each other to the extent that they are able to more or less maintain a barter system within their own lands. When they interact with other races – or even other Gelvani, though, sadly, they find that their idyllic views are only suited to their own kind.
Thanks to both geography and history, the Que Gelvani often find themselves standing between the Grey and Drey Gelvani in their long-standing rivalries. Many among the Que believe that the rift between their two cousins has led to their exile from Arvanis, and as such over the centuries this had led to a culture more likely to try to walk a fine line than instigate conflict between the Gelvani. Since the first of two wars between Mirivia and Shanothyr, though, the Que have been forced to have a less idealistic and more pragmatic view of their cousins and neighbors. It is the Que Gelvani nature to seek peace with their neighbors, but recent events have forced them to become more wary of anyone with whom they share a border. The peaceful race has endured over a century of war, and even in victory they find themselves surrounded by chaos.
Some these days hold bitterness towards the Drey Gelvani due to their divisiveness and the wars fought with their cousins, while others hold fast to the desire for the Gelvani to embrace unity more now than ever given the devastation of the wars have inflicted upon all of them and the chaos outside their collective borders. It remains to be seen what effects the collective wars will have on the Que Gelvani as a society, but they are what they are, and will hold true to their passions and ways until they one day bask in the forests of Arvanis once more.
AT WAR
….. Though generally a peaceful people, the Que-Gelvani understand they must defend the harmony they seek. Hence, all of their children are raised to learn the art of the sword and that of the bow. Que-Gelvani thus do not have a true army, but can call upon a very large and well-trained militia whenever the need arises. All the same, there are a few among them who have devoted their lives to the defense of their people and their realms. They typically join more-or-less independent groups, some of which have an affiliation to the Quel-Thena or a specific deity. One such group are the Suar-Lanyr, or Blade-Dancers, who combine their pursuit for martial supremacy with magical skill, all in the quest to uphold the Gelvani way of life.
CURRENT CULTURE
….. Que-Gelvani prefer to dress in light flowing silken clothing, favoring whites or otherwise bright colors with gold and silver lacing. They greatly value taste and form in their attire.
CURRENT VIEWS
Of the Drey-Gelvani:
Of the Grey-Gelvani:
Of the Seyl-Gelvani:
Ok, so I thought we'd use this board to discuss exactly what we think should make the Que'Gelvani unique.
So far, the areas to define that I've come up with are:
History, Appearance, Demeanor, Society, Culture, Religion, At War, Current Culture, Views
I thought we'd start by discussing Appearance.
Here's what I had posted originally:
Here are my thoughts:
Height: 4'10'' to 5'10''
Weight: 90 lbs to 180 lbs
Eye Colors: Brights (blue, light brown, hazel, green), Metallics (gold, silver, copper, bronze)
Hair Colors: Earth Tones (auburn, red, brown, black, blonde), Metallics (gold, silver, platinum, copper, bronze)
ORIGIN
Fey-Kalin was the god of culture, music, festivals, joy, arts and crafts.
Especially in non-stat pages like this, I want to get away from "domains" and stuff like that. Let's describe deities in a way that reflects what they really are as opposed to "this is my chunk of the pantheon".
How would the Gelvani really describe Fey-Kalin? He has to have some titles of veneration and such, right? So we should come up with them. Consider Apollo, from the Greco-Roman pantheon. He was known as:
So on, so forth. People could get what Apollo was about before they flipped to his "Deities and Demigods" profile to see that he was the god of "Good, Healing, Magic, Knowledge, and the Sun".
AT WAR
Give specifics without being mechanical about it. Why does everyone learn the sword and bow? Because in the ancient days when they first were exiled to Naeja, the savage Orog beset them on all sides, and the making of war was forced on every man and woman.
You already have my thoughts on their armies, both permanent and "part time".
Please post your comments here…
Chewing on 'Que Gelvani Culture'…
This is a rough draft only. I wanted to focus on a) the "feel" of the Que Gelvani as the children of Fey Kalin, b) their (more) outgoing nature, c) internal and d) external relations, and e) potential future outlook.
CULTURE
The Que Gelvani are the most numerous of the Gelvani, and are by far the most open and outgoing of the Children of Gelthena. They celebrate life and their existence and long for the day they can rejoin their Great Mother in Arvanis. Where the Grey communities embrace their debates and the Drey are fond of their competitions, Que Gelvani communities are well known for their festivals and celebrations. With song and poem, the Que Gelvani embrace deeds of old, ideals of greatness and glories of past eras; all while pining to one day bring unity to their race. They are often passionate and driven, and their openness leads them to live lives of many dalliances. They are their father Fey-Kalin’s children, reveling in the forests, and caring deeply for art, music, and performance.
The Que are possibly the most curious of the Gelvani, and thus are the most likely ones to be found outside the Gelvani forests. Often as merchants they travel to nearby Duenemein and Duervar lands, benefiting from their brethren’s more isolationist tendencies. Due to this tendency, those who’d never meet a Grey, Drey, or Sylvani often think of the Que as ‘the stereotypical Gelvani’, though this isn’t always the case. The Que are more alike the other Gelvani than not, and can occasionally come across as xenophobic and ethnocentric when they do interact with other races if they aren’t careful.
Within their own realms, the Que Gelvani have a peaceful society. Given their long life spans and passion for all aspects of their lives, they often individually possess a smattering of different skills, such that they could all exist in completely self-reliant states. Interestingly enough, however, their collective family units prefer to exist in a more co-dependent state to provide for each the basic needs of existence. Due to this, the Que provide for each other to the extent that they are able to more or less maintain a barter system within their own lands. When they interact with other races – or even other Gelvani, though, sadly, they find that their idyllic views are only suited to their own kind.
Thanks to both geography and history, the Que Gelvani often find themselves standing between the Grey and Drey Gelvani in their long-standing rivalries. Many among the Que believe that the rift between their two cousins has led to their exile from Arvanis, and as such over the centuries this had led to a culture more likely to try to walk a fine line than instigate conflict between the Gelvani. Since the first of two wars between Mirivia and Shanothyr, though, the Que have been forced to have a less idealistic and more pragmatic view of their cousins and neighbors. It is the Que Gelvani nature to seek peace with their neighbors, but recent events have forced them to become more wary of anyone with whom they share a border. The peaceful race has endured over a century of war, and even in victory they find themselves surrounded by chaos.
Some these days hold bitterness towards the Drey Gelvani due to their divisiveness and the wars fought with their cousins, while others hold fast to the desire for the Gelvani to embrace unity more now than ever given the devastation of the wars have inflicted upon all of them and the chaos outside their collective borders. It remains to be seen what effects the collective wars will have on the Que Gelvani as a society, but they are what they are, and will hold true to their passions and ways until they one day bask in the forests of Arvanis once more.
Regan,
I think you hit the nail on the head with the above post.
I was kind of afraid to propose the paragraph you wrote, re: states of self-reliance combined with family units being co-dependent and bartering with one another, because I thought I'd come off as socialist-whacky. But I think that perfectly describes them. Concepts like how many gold pieces they have, etc, just don't seem "Gelvani".
I see any Que'Gelvani as possessing the skill to go hunt a deer, or catch a fish, for instance. Of course the level of this skill will vary. A young man or woman won't be as adept at doing so than, say, an adult two centuries old. I also totally see every family tending to small groves of fruit trees, like Ken's said in the past. So, bottom line, they're not going to starve. And the niceties of life - the clothes, the fancy tree-homes, the jewelry, the weapons and armor, etc. - I see those as coming as exchanges with people they have intimate relationships with: immediate or extended relatives, good friends, etc., rather than going to someone and saying "how much gold for that sword?"
Don't get me wrong, I can totally see pure barter commissions. "I'll shape a new chamber for your tree-home, but I need your sons to find these rare components for my own studies; or I would have you fashion me an elegant ruby brooch; or I would have you sew me seven robes for seven Mid-Summer balls" and all that. Makes total sense.
I also don't see the Que'Gelvani engaging in mass manufacture. They live for centuries, so they would make things that last (and Ken described them as master craftsmen). I imagine this playing in with their passion for life. A Que'Gelvani weapon-artisan wouldn't make a sword every day. He wouldn't need to, since his swords don't break and dull all the time. Thus, I imagine when they do make things, they matter to them. They have a passion for them. I think this goes hand-in-hand with the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (from 3.5) where starting PCs from certain places started with Masterwork Weapons and/or Armor. That's how I see the Que'Gelvani: they'd apprentice under an experienced adult until they could make MW items. That's what they have passion for - not making "average" or "lesser" crude implements. It goes hand-in-hand with their "quality, not numbers" theme.
I imagine trade with Duneimen would be kind of bizarre, right? A merchant might be kind of surprised to see that the Que'Gelvani merchant from whom he's buying [whatever] kind of looks askew at his various coins and demands bars of pure gold and nothing else - it would be much easier for his family to make jewelry from that then melting the coins and such.
Again, great summary.
Hey Phoebus, I love your comments on their craftsmanship and mastery of arts. That is definately true.
Regan and I were discussing their trade system the other day. Here's the basic concept: Que'Gelvani don't use money for any basics and necessities of life but they do use it for exchange outside their culture and within it they eventually adopted money for exchanging luxury items.
In gelvani society everyone works together to provide food, clothing and housing for everyone (much like the Amish). The common community shares a field. No one owns land. Your family may have an ancestral home, and you consider it yours, but there is no arguments over who lives where. There is simply plenty of space in the forests for the gelvani. There is, though, a monetary system on the high end of things. This wasn't a gelvani concept. When they first began trading with the duervar they found out rather quickly that they couldn't offer much that the duervar wanted or needed. What the duervar did want, though, they often wanted to "buy" by trading small adorned metal discs called coins. The gelvani caught on and realized that this wasn't a bad system for exchange of goods that have a lot of work in them and aren't essentials of life (masterwork weapons, jewelry, etc…). So, they worked with the duervar, gathering wealth through trade and eventually were able to buy precious metals and gem stones from the duervar, which before then had taken them a great deal of time to extract from the mountains in the north. So now the gelvani have money, but within their own society they don't use it for common every day needs, only for luxury items. You need a new shirt? Go pick one up from the tailor's house. Oh, you want a fancy new shirt for the ball, with silver trimming and pearls sewn at the color? The tailor may have that, but it will cost you some coins. Oh, you don't have any coins? Why don't you sell me one of those beautiful flutes you've been working on? I know you have a dozen simple flutes, but I've always admired the ones you keep for yourself, so let me buy one and I'm sure you'll have enough for a shirt and them some.
Obviously within their culture there would still be a lot of simple bartering and exchange for luxury items, but the use of coins allows them to interact well with other societies
I don't know, Ken. I think barter would work just fine with Gelvani, on any level.
It really comes back to that whole "quality", "masterful artisan" concept. What are the two reasons currency is used?
Where the first is concerned, you want to make sure that everyone's basing their prices off of a common baseline, and everyone's receiving a common value for their product. Where the second is concerned, it's because you need to buy something then and there. You don't have time to make something for exchange. Or maybe your trade doesn't involve you making something.
But think about everything we've said regarding Gelvani society. The most common type of community is the House, followed closely by the Homes. A House is an extended family: "a gathering of Tree-Homes of those families from the same line; e.g., the daughters of one mother would all have "Tree-Homes" in the same area… This type of community would not need coins. Not just where luxury items are concerned, but especially where luxury items are concerned - because of their familial relationship. It's what I meant when I was saying that two cousins (or siblings, etc.) can arrive at a mutual conclusion as to what a luxury item would be worth. As in "I will make you this masterwork longsword if your wife, in turn, sews this magnificent gown for my wife."
Where I see this economy changing is when we get to the Large Town level ("ex: Trevanya; any gathering of 5 or more Houses"). Why? Because this is the level of society where you're no longer dealing with your immediate or close relatives (siblings, parents, first cousins), but with individuals who are only distant relatives (with whom you have had very little, if any, contact) or not related to you at all. Concurrently, because you're dealing with individuals outside of your House, we're now getting into the part of Gelvani society where a Thena is not just the matriarch in a familial sense; she is the lady-aristocrat who is in charge of the community.
So, when we get into House-to-House exchanges (the economies of the "large towns" and "cities", where several hundred or even thousands of Gelvani are involved), now I can see the use of "currency" of some sort. Even then, though, I don't really see them using coins. I see them using other items that can still enable them to participate in outsider societies - like gems, or something resembling actual bars of precious metals (like those large mithril disks you introduced one time). Because let's face it, when Gelvani are advertised as being both self-sufficient but also co-dependent within their House, they're rarely going to look outside their extended family for individual purchases. That kind of trade - as with outsiders - will be in bulk. A good (and fun!) question would be what kind of items the Gelvani would buy in bulk from one another or even from outsiders.
A traveling Gelvani - whether it's a merchant, an ambassador, an adventurer, etc. - would likely bring the sort of precious or expendable objects/materials that he could convert into outsider currency. E.g., a young adventurer would probably come out with a couple of rubies (or whatever), which he could turn into a certain amount of gold or what have you. Or an ambassador departing with her entourage to for Moar might be given ten mithril disks by the Quel'Thena, which would allow her to live in luxury for the year (or whatever) that she will be there for.
The 'no currency' model can only go as far as small towns, and that's due to the fact that there are larger overall family units to provide for each other in a Gelvani society. Coinage would have to exist if you go beyond basic needs; it's a fundamental truth. Money exists because it is a medium of exchange, and a true barter system wouldn't work for anything larger in a complex society. For further explanation as to why this is, ask yourself why we make pennies when it costs more than one cent to make them.
As far as bulk goes, the Gelvani would most likely buy raw materials - iron, cotton, silk, etc.; materials that aren't necessarily native to their lands.
That's exactly what I was saying above. Hold and House (the majority of communities, which are extended families) don't need this. No disagreement on the larger settings. I'm fairly aware of how currency works, and didn't propose the above on a whim. ;)
Again, though, I would rather not see the stereotypical coins. Use gems, or things like the mithril disks that Ken introduced one time, since this is about bulk trade rather than individual purchases (which barter could still address, even in the actual cities).
The problem with gems is that they vary so much in value and aren't easily "cashable" in other societies. That may not matter much from your perspective, but for a business man it would be harder to deal with.
That aside, where do these gems come from? I know the Drey'Gelvani mine in the northern mountains, but I didn't picture them as gem miners, and if they did they would be the wealthiest of all Gelvani. I'd rather stick with coins that were traded INTO the Gelvani society, with few Gelvani specific coins.
For example, the Gelvani Mithril Coin is of great significance. It's worth 100 gp. They produce this for trade with outside societies.
I agree with all the points above, otherwise, and feel they could all be interlaced into the complex Gelvani economy (a mixture of barter, trade and coins).
Ken
At Sbarro at ATL airport; apologies for no color coding.
I think coinage is a must, no matter how 'stereotypical' it may be. For one, we might want to dress up things as different, but the only reason the GP system is used to begin with is it's ease of use in a campaign. There's never been a universal currency rate any more than there's been a 'common' language.
For practical purposes, common exchange rates must exist.
Secondly, coins are used because of what they are - valuable amounts of rare material. Just as paper money wouldnt hold value in such a society, coins themselves are valuable because they are gold, etc.
I know y'all want to idealistic-up the gelvani when it comes to common economics, etc., but it can only go so far…
Now back to waiting for Delta 5552…..
Regan, excellent write up. I will be making a few edits, but they are minor and don't change the basics of what you say. I will simply embelish some of the points and expand on them.
Que-Gelvani, as I see them, live in one of the few successful socialist societies. This is due in many ways to their long lives and cultural origins. They are a race of artisans, and as Phoebus put very well, they would prefer to work on perfecting their trades rather than waste time with crude mass-production. This is one reason why Gelvani wares are so desired beyond their borders and yet so rare.
I will down play the peace part a little more, though. They are a peaceful people, especially within their own borders, but they are very defensive of their culture and are ready to fight when anyone threatens their border. Unfortunately you've made it sound as if they are completely blameless in the wars between their peoples, and that just isn't true. However, we will be writing this from a 1st person perspective, so when it comes to that I will probably write in some justifications for their actions.
Again, great stuff. Thanks for the work.
Thanks, though with the peace issues I never mentioned who attacked whom. Bottom line of that situation was that the Que would never have initiated war with the Drey had there not been extenuating circumstances, like Kelamin ordering Tiercellus to do it, and I was describing the Que Gelvani's "default state". The first Drey Gelvani war began when they invaded Mirivia.
As far as the peaceful elements go, I recognize that a player picking up the game will end up seeing the Que Gelvani as the 'middle elves', and wanted to put forth some establishment there as to why they are what they are. The Que Gelvani simply don't have the disdain for their brethren as the Grey and Drey do, and outside of political reasons, have no reason to clash with their cousins.
And, like 80% are Bards…or at least have Bardic 'Training'……. :-P
Also, remember that this is the 'Culture' section. The Que do have a peaceful culture. Their queen has even forbidden them from crossing the street. I'd save all references for them and the wars for the 'Que Gelvani at War' section.
Clothing
I'd like you guys to consider this basic theme for a second: "dressing for peace, girding for war."
Call me unduly influenced by popular media, but I liked how Peter Jackson handled his elves in "Lord of the Rings". When Elrond was at home in Rivendell, he looked like a man at ease. When going to war, though, there was no question about it: he was ready for war.
With that in mind, I imagine Que'Gelvani dressing for comfort when at home or at leisure. I mostly see them wearing clothing made from loose, light, even diaphanous fabrics. I would think them to favor unisex clothing - elegant robes and such, as opposed to our more European concept of "men in pants, women in gowns". Why robes? Because they're comfortable, relaxed, and afford an ease of movement. Think about how you feel in a bathrobe (except of more appropriate lengths and such), only made of silk. I think there would definitely be a difference in cut, design, color, and decoration between male and female attire, of course.
I think the "Lord of the Rings" look serves as a good start:
I'm specifically thinking of the third elf from the left (male, light blue), the last elf on the right, and kind of-sort of what the two women on the right are wearing, except looser and more open.
I imagine most of the artifice the Que'Gelvani are known more being shown in tasteful, elegant designs woven into the fabrics using the same color - or similar colors - as the clothing itself… the sort of fancy work that is subtle and blends in with the overall whole. Those who were wealthy would obviously also wear jewels and jewelry, but I don't see such pieces as being ostentatious or overly fancy/over-large. I imagine they are, more often than not, labors of love, heirlooms, or pieces their friends have made for them over a period of many years. So rather than wearing a ton of stuff, they prefer one or two really meaningful pieces. Nobility and royalty tend to wear pieces that signify their station, but theirs are elegantly subtle as well - no giant crowns and such are needed, since only 3-4 elves in all the realms have the right to wear a crown of any sort.
The same would hold true for functional clothing. Male and female Que'Gelvani alike would dress in clothing that makes sense for work, crafting, hunting, etc.
Even in this sort of attire, though, I see them as being elegant. I hate to say it, but I picture the Que'Gelvani (and the Grey'Gelvani as well) as fitting in the "our crap smells like roses" category. I don't know; call it magic, call it special technology, call it a combination of both, but I don't even see their smiths or armorers as getting dirty. Maybe that's a little overboard, I don't know! :D
Physical Appearance
So, I guess we've established that all elves are attractive. That sucks, I guess, 'cause I thought I was getting something special when I gave Kalthanan a high CHA stat. I mean, it obviously didn't work as "force of personality", since no one listened to him. ;)
I figure the height categories you gave work well: the shortest Que'Gelvani woman would be around 4'10", and the tallest Que'Gelvani man would be around 5'10". Which figures about right with what we already had, since we said that, at 5'8", Kalthanan was on the tall side for a high elf. Weight-wise, I think they should top off around 150lbs-160lbs. If you saw some pictures of 5'10", 180lb running backs, you'd quickly say "that's not a Gelvani."
I would like to keep the earth tones - for hair or eyes - reserved for the Seyl'Gelvani and, to a lesser extent, the Drey'Gelvani. Let's stick to the metallic or naturally light (white, gray, very light blonde) where hair is concerned, and blue, gray, green, hazel, and metallic for their eyes. Lighter skin colors make sense (they contrast with the Seyl' and Drey'Gelvani nicely), and the whole "warm glow" bit sounds nice and Tolkien-esque.
Ultimately, there should be a regal sense coming from them - they are high elves, after all.
Tired, fading fast; just wanted to make one comment on clothing. I agree that the Tolkien-esque look regarding unisex robes, etc. is a good way to go, but I also suggest that the High Elves be more 'fashionable'. Being the descendents of Fey Kalin, I submit that they'd have all manner of clothing, functional to fashionable, etc. Since I don't know that much about the subject, I can't speculate much, but I like the idea of them dressing certain ways in different seasons, different occassions, etc.
Like attractive women walking around with boots on when autumn begins, etc. I dunno, in a world where everyone always walks around in the same armor, cloaks, etc (because they're usually magical), I just think it's a good idea to describe people changing clothes every once in a while. Different styles, different occasions, etc.
IOW, the Tolkien look is awesome, but every once in a while, I want to picture scantily-clad hotness swinging through the trees. Going to bed now.
Regan,
Where the last comment is concerned, like I said… looser, more open robes. ;)
And yeah, definitely seasonal. And by occasion. Spot on, brother!
Here's where I'll probably disagree with you guys: Gelvani in robes. I like the Tolkien elf robes, but they are totally impracticle for any work-a-day gelvani. You can't work in a field, forge a sword, or even cook in the kitchen in robes. Robes, to me, are the Grey'Gelvani everyday wear. The elves you pictured above are actually the basis of the Grey Elves in D&D. Tolkiens "high-elves" were much more practical, though I don't think he ever focused on their clothing much.
I really must agree with Regan. Robes would be simply part of their wardrobe. Gelvani shouldn't be shown as wearing only one style. They are less prone to "popular culture" causing changes in style every five years, but they would have shifted over the centuries and what more they must simply have a wide variety of clothes for all the wide variety of things they do in their lives.
What should Que'Gelvani daily wear be? Probably light weight shirts and pants made of silks. In one story, somewhere, I had described a Que'Gelvani silk farm. They had a huge section of woods devoted to the raising of silk worms and the harvesting of silk. It would be a really neat image. Que'Gelvani daily wear is work a day clothes designed to ease their movement through the woods and do their daily chores. They would probably also have developed a lot of cotton type clothing from trees that can produce cotton like flower bulbs.
What should Que'Gelvani dress wear be? I'm perfectly fine with the elegant robes and gowns idea. I like the embelished silks. I think a variety should be suggested, but we can focus on the robes.
Another post for physical appearance to come…
The Complete Elves Handbook, Page 35.
In a related story, Felicia Day dressed up Elfy for some Dragon Age thing.
Ken, I think you missed this line from my post:
"The same would hold true for functional clothing. Male and female Que'Gelvani alike would dress in clothing that makes sense for work, crafting, hunting, etc."
As in, a smith would dress in a way that would make sense for a smith. Same for a hunter, etc.
And as I responded to Regan, earlier, definitely seasonal and definitely appropriate to the occasion.
Ok, then we're all in agreement.
Physical Appearance
Gelvani are attractive by "human standards" but amongst themselves they have their own standards. A gelvani can be "goofy" looking, but still be beautiful in that gelvani way; unblemished skin, beautiful hair and eyes, soft natural glow, etc… I would say some of the people in that picture above aren't "attractive" but are beautiful. Humans in this world are fairly dirty people. Gelvani are naturally clean people. Yes, they can get dirty, but I imagine they put emphasis on keeping clean. They will spend a couple hours fixing their hair, because they live such long lives that they don't see it as a waste of time. Humans feel they must get into the fields first thing to get as much work done as possible. Humans are much more driven than gelvani, because they live such shorter lives, so they don't put as much emphasis on physical care.
Heights and weights all sound good. There are a couple hair colors I would add to your list, but for the most part I agree.
Thanks guys.
Let me disagree on this: the whole "more driven" bit. I don't subscribe to this for a simple reason: they share (more or less) the same 24-hour cycle. We don't go to work thinking "Oh my gosh, I only have twenty-five years before I retire!" or "Man, I better get going this morning - I only have a few years to get the money I need to put Aedan in college!" And neither do farmers, or craftsmen, etc. Work ethic is one thing; awareness of longevity is another.
Likewise, I don't think Gelvani get all done up because they have an extra few centuries to live. I think they do so because they live in a more comfortable society, where you don't necessarily need to put in 12-hour days to satisfy your local lord.
Or, in other words: the Gelvani sworsdmith doesn't take a month (or however long the rulebook says) to make a masterwork longsword because he's of the "Hey, I'm only a hundred and fifty, I've got another three hundred years to live!" mindset. I think he takes a month because he's of the "I will make the best longsword I can, because I'm driven and passionate about my work!" mindset.
I know this sounds like quibbling, but I wanted to address this because I do feel it's kind of integral to the mindset of a race.
Agree. As people age, their awareness of time increases; this is because to an 80 year old, a year is one eightieth of their life, whereas to a 5 year old, a year is a fifth of their life. Time seems to speed up as a person ages. This has no effect on how they spend it (outside of the realm of maturity.)
Man, I have to say… most of the material in that section would be better for AFTER they were booted from Arvanis/got to Naeja.
Honestly, I am simply not a fan of the concept/theme wherein the metaphysical higher planes (Arvanis, etc.) are described as parallels to the material plane and the souls, powers, deities, etc., inhabiting them are described as societies paralleling those of living creatures. It cheapens the whole concept of the metaphysical, I think, to reduce such existence to "we learned how to build", and "we learned how to make things", etc.
It would be much better, IMHO, for the struggles that led to the exile to be spiritual ones, fought in dimensions and ways that transcend the physical plane. The knowledge of the Gelvani (the things you describe in this section) would be better portrayed, I think, as the parting gifts of their loving parent deities, to better prepare them for the rigors and horrors of the material plane. In turn, some of the negative aspects could be the parting "gifts" (more like curses) by the less-than-loving deities (e.g., Vilrithia), who have no interest in seeing the Gelvani achieving harmony and reconciliation.
So, to summarize my opinions:
1. The Tree of Life can be metaphysical, physical, metaphorical, and literal - all at the same time. This is because it transcends our understanding and because the gods will at times show things to mortals in ways that they can comprehend them. A living mortal would go insane before he or she could physically absorb with their own eyes the totality of such a concept.
2. The creation stories are parables that have evolved over the millennia. They suit the needs of Gelvani who have never seen Arvanis, never lived among their parent deities, and have no direct physical knowledge of what their creation was like. They are poetic metaphor.
3. The education of the Gelvani (Grey'Gelvani building, Drey'Gelvani making weapons, etc.) was achieved as they arrived on Naeja. It could have been a physical thing, wherein Kelamin (via an Avatar or his priests) no kidding taught the Drey'Gelvani how to make spears and bows over a certain period of time. Or it could have been a metaphysical thing, wherein in the fraction of a second (or whatever) it took for the Gelvani to be exiled, their parent deities taught them what they would need to know as physical beings as opposed to immortal souls.
4. The conflict in Arvanis could be about whatever, but I would much rather it be symbolic and metaphysical rather than mundane spears, swords, and flipping hospitals.
All the above could, however, be described in Gelvani myth and religious text alike in terms they could understand (and could be very similar to the paragraphs you typed). But I would like it to be qualified that this is the case. As in, we should describe how that myth appears in a beautiful marble frieze depicting the fall of the Gelvani in an ancient temple, and that this is how they interpret what happened all those thousands of years ago. Because, honestly, nothing bugged me more about Planescape and the D&D planar concepts in general than the transposing of totally mundane concepts in a supernatural setting. Anyone up for hanging out in a tavern in the Abyss, for instance?!? So if there was such a thing as a veto, and I had one item to use it on, this would be it: no direct physical parallels between the material world's constructs, societies, etc., and the supernatural planes.
Of course, you guys can also feel free to tell me to shut the heck up! It's just an opinion, after all! :)
I agree. I think it would be a good idea to make the description either a bit more nebulous or advocate that these are the "beliefs" passed down to explain the mythos. Honestly, we would be awed to gaze upon what we picture Mirivia to look like. The Gelvani should speak of Arvanis as a jaw-dropping place. Sure, something bad had to happen for them to be cast down, but I agree it needs to be more spiritual and less 'mundane' sounding.
Since Planescape is my favorite campaign setting, I must object to it being used as a reference improperly. :P
Much of Planescape focused on Sigil and the Gate Towns, in order to keep the 'mundanity' there and away from the Planes themselves, giving players a chance to both have an anchor to the world they're used to and to immerse themselves in worlds where rivers float through the skies. Both Sigil and the Gate Towns were built up around the portals because the latter were there first; the towns were built around them. The planes themselves as described are anything but mundane, and almost always fit a paradigm that make sense for them. There are no "taverns" in the Abyss for wayward planewalkers with room and board for the night. There are places where Tanar'ri gather to enjoy some bloodbrew and have some human-on-a-stick, but again, there are no "taverns" in the Abyss.
Planescape also made a huge differentiation between the Planes themselves and the actual Realms upon the Planes were the Powers actually existed. The Afterlife of the Elves wasn't merely "on Arborea ten miles down the road past the Gilded Hall near the Chick-Fil-A", it was a whole Realm unto itself, infinite and ascendent in its own right, located in a lush, infinite realm of wild beauty, deep forests, and rolling hills. Realms of Good Powers were Paradises among Paradises, and any Planewalker worth his salt would steer clear of them like it was no tomorrow.
And sorry, but again, there are no "taverns" in the Abyss. :)
I was actually thinking the same thing as I was writing it. I haven't had time to go back and do anything with it. I think I'll be coming up with more mythical events in Arvanis and these other story arcs will be what occurred in Mirivia/Shanothyr.
I probably 50/50 agree with you. The Gelvani have to have some sort of society in Arvanis, as they had to have some reason to war amongst themselves and then be kicked out. I just need to make it more mythical.
Honestly I think this sounds way too philosophical and doesn't coincide with the greater mythological theme we are aiming for. In most mythologies the eternal realms (Olympus, Ellysium, Vallhalla, Aetheria, etc…) were all physical realms of extraordinary characteristics. They weren't spiritual. The eternal realms of this campaign world are physical places were spirits are given new physical forms after death. In the case of the Gelvani they were given physical form before being cast out. When they die they are either given physical form in Arvanis, or they appear as a shadow in Neth Noril.
Unfortunately the rest of your comments are contradictory to well established history in the campaign. Arvanis is filled with towers and buildings of incredible beauty created by the gods themselves. There are huge shrines and temples the sixth blood created to honor them. The difference between the earthly buildings and the buildings in Arvanis is a matter of plausibility. The buildings of Arvanis are so incredible they defy reason. They are masterworks of art and architecture that seem unreasonable for any race to create. Imagine huge domed shrines held aloft by towering narrow pillars covered in ornate stone filigree. Imagine towers no more than ten feet wide that climb hundreds of feet into the air. Imagine ampitheatres of thousands of elaborate wooden seats with plush cushions resting beneath a vast canopy held aloft by beautifully carved wooden frames. Because the weather is always beautiful there is no thought of it not being protected.
In Arvanis the Gelvani were as simply mortal as they are now. Think of the elves in Tolkien's stories. Just because they lived amongst the gods didn't mean they acted like them. Heck even Tokien's gods built structures. It is the ancient myths of our world that inspire my view of the realms of the after life. They should, in fact, be so close to the real world that some may believe they are part of the world, hidden in secret places beyond the edges of the map.
So, when you say…
It makes me wonder what you would want the eternal realms to be like?
Ken
To me, Arvanis is both physical and metaphysical - finite and as infinite as the deities who populate it decree it to be. My concept is as loose as that (meaning, no mechanics) and as rule-driven as the DM would like using rules from Deities and Demigods 3E… which showed how a deity can create structures, alter the environment, etc. To that end, concepts like the Tree of Life are - again - both real and metaphorical, physical and metaphysical.
I don't like to imagine borders within Arvanis, or real distances, or purely physical boundaries, geographical features, etc. I think it the "terrain" should be very arbitrary and subject to the whims of the gods.
Imagine, if you will, when the Sixth Blood were first created. I don't think there were thousands, or even hundreds of them. In fact, I imagine the first of the Que-Gelvani created by Gelthena and Fey-Kalin were probably just one family, or perhaps a couple dozen different high elves. That one family lived in a place within Arvanis that was idyllic, a beautiful woodland grove suffised with a nimbus of light, with a stream running through it, and fruits, animals, etc. Did they have buildings, etc.? I don't know, probably not (see more below on this), but it's a moot argument. The point is that it was just as much a state of mind as it was a physical place. It was finite only in the sense that in a true paradise the compulsion to wander and explore would be moot. It was infinite in the sense that, even with the absence of said compulsion, it's not as if it would have ended in a bubble.
Nor do I imagine those Gelvani as being mortal flesh and blood creatures as much as physical manifestations of the divine souls the gods created.
If those Gelvani wanted to travel, I don't imagine Arvanis being a place with rivers, mountains, forests, etc. At least not in the mundane, purely physical sense. If that family grew, and one of the daughters wanted her own place for her own growing family, then there would have been a place for her and her people in the metaphysical Arvanis. Travel would have been as much a state of mind as an action… not the mundane idea of "let's go walking for X days over Y miles in Arvanis, so we can get to another town!"
Now, when it comes to the conflicts between the children of the Sixth Blood, I am just as opposed to a mundane, physical conflict based on raids and such. I think it defeats an otherwise excellent back-story. The defining parable of the Gelvani is that the gods from whence the Sixth Blood came already suffered from their own conflicts. For example, Vilrithia poisoned Kelamin with her own problems, which translated into issues between him and Fey-Kalin.
Keeping that in mind, I also reference my ideas of Arvanis as an idyllic state of mind. So, you have a realm that is harmonious and ideal. But then there is rancor between the gods. In my eyes, these divisions are inherited by their offspring. Unlike the gods, the Sixth Blood is allowed to be fruitful and multiply, and in my eyes it is this factor that makes the divisions prominently felt throughout Arvanis for the first time. That is, there cannot be this idyllic state of mind when the creations that live within this world are not in harmony.
This disharmony - both physical and metaphysical - led to the Gelvani being exiled to Naeja. I don't know how you want to describe it, but raids and such just cheapens it in my eyes.
Once on Naeja, the Gelvani were vulnerable like they had never been in their entire existence. It is at this time that I believe their gods taught them the skills they needed to survive. Because they were thrown out together, none of those skills did not remain unique to any one sub-race, but the actual children of the god teaching a specific skill nonetheless gained a special bond to what he brought to them. Thus, while all Gelvani know how to make weapons and wage war, it is the children of Kelamin who are the natural warriors. While all Gelvani know how to tap into magic, it is the children of Zarthandir who are greatest in that realm. While all Gelvani know how to build and make things, it is the children of Fey-Kalin who are able to raise the grandest towers, sing the greatest songs, and erect the most lasting, inclusive civilization of their kind.
Unfortunately, they didn't learn the lesson that was most crucial, and thus remained separate from one another.
Now, back to the eternal realm.
As the Gelvani of the Sixth Blood grew and their society, knowledge, etc., evolved I believe Arvanis did as well. It's still a place that's as much a state of mind and steeped in the metaphysical as it is in the physical, but the aspects that permeate Gelvani society fill it now as well. Hence why you now have grand towers, etc. But I still don't think of these places in the Planescape sense - in that they are landmarks in a known geography. I imagine that a particular "tower" within Arvanis might appear a thousand different ways to a thousand different dead Gelvani, and yet more varied to living ones who make it there somehow.
I don't like this parallel because it ignores a fundamental fact: Olympus was not a separate plane. Olympus was a mountain, and the ancient Greeks understood the palace of the gods to be on top of it. It wasn't metaphysical in any sense. Neither, for that matter, was Tartaurus, the Elysian Fields, or any part of the afterworld on a separate place. They were a literal underworld. Even Asgard was originally conceived as a place on the mortal world.
I don't know. Purely physical higher places just kinda strike me as cheesy.